shut up Brian Tamaki
I get so angry whenever Brain Tamaki opens his mouth and rants . Why? I get really pissed off when so-called Christian leaders spout off hatred, intolerance and bigotry, as if they are speaking for the Christian perspective.
So it's time for my rant. Here goes.
Brian Tamaki doesn't speak for me. Christians who speak for me tend to speak more on what they believe , not what they oppose. What does Tamaki believe in? I know more about what he opposes than what he believes, purely because that’s what he spends most of his time talking about. He claims to love the sinner but hates the sin. This "love the sinner hate the sin" stuff reeks of bigotry when you hate the sin more than you love the sinner. So we should love Tamaki even though he conceived a child out of wedlock, we should love Tamaki even though he is raking in tithes from his congregation for his own use and backing up his riches with "Gods blessing"?
What would Jesus do? I`ll tell you. He will kick out all the eftpos machines out of Destiny Churches just like he kicked out the money changers in the Temple. There are some people who are putting their families in hardship just so they can keep up the weekly tithe. Some are on benefits. Jesus will emphasise that it is more important to look after your family rather than tithe. He would explain what he believes in, and love those who didn’t share his views instead of publicly and repeatedly attacking them without even meeting them first.
What is interesting is that members of Destiny churches talk more about Pastor Brian ( now bishop Brian) than they do about the teachings of Jesus. This church is verging on being a mind-control cult. Of course, you can trust that what Brian Tamaki is doing is right because it is ordained by God himself. And you can trust that it is ordained by God himself because Brian Tamaki tells you so.
So, what do church leaders think of Tamaki? Here's one who isn't happy. The rest have remained silent. It's time they spoke up.
Last word to Tamaki, regarding his views of the media, or in his words " modern day witchcraft" "(They) give full coverage to everything that's negative".
And as long as Tamaki opens his mouth and continues the way he is going, he`l1 get a lot of media coverage purely because he is so negative- and so many people agree with his approach.
Well, I don’t.
16 comments:
Dave
I agree with you that Tamaki is a bit out there. As for making himself "Bishop" well....
But one must attack his arguments not his style. The simple thing to do is ask where he gets his "authority" from...and keep asking it. All this personal vitriol thats being thrown at him is will only harden his attitude and those of his supporters.
Finally, some of the things he says are actually not far off the money.
As an aside, you had a post about Popetown earlier but I forgot to reply. As a Catholic I watched it - and I found it offensive. Why? In the same way I would find it offensive if someone made a cartoon about YOUR father or family and had your Dad painting with his own excrement amoung the other things, and with a Pope charactiture clearly modelled on the late JPII.
Well done. I notice more christians are starting to stand up and publicly oppose "Bishop" Tamaki and his mind control cult. I too am a christian and I cringe everytime this guy opens his mouth.
Hey! What?? Careful, makes it sound like I'm the "Destinite". Even so, apart from his interpretation of the book of Revelation, I don't disagree with anything my Detiny friend has said. There is no way anyone can prove Tamaki is an immoral man who is not walking in the Spirit. Thus I focus not on who he or is, or how he lives, but on his message.
As the Apostle Paul once said;
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
- Philippians 1:15-18
I understand your concern that Tamaki spends more time talking about what he is against than what he is for. I also think you underestimate just how much the moral law is a part of everyone's conscience. We already know what Tamaki is for, and what we all should be for, the difference with Tamaki is that he makes spiritual judgments on things the rest of us are too scared to.
I must admit, though, Tamaki would do well to give a bit of airtime to things such as morality (in a positive sense), and the honour, dignity and glory of God, and implicitly of man.
As for your "What would Jesus do?" spiel, Dave, I think you are being bold in your assertions. You are comparing apples with oranges, and rewriting the Bible.
I will endeavour to respond to your questions on my blog after hearing Tamaki speak in New Plymouth tomorrow night.
I would suggest, too, that if you keep an eye on Tamaki's tv broadcasts, his news releases, the news releases of Destiny NZ (which are always on www.scoop.co.nz) you will hear a lot of what Tamaki and Destiny stand for. If you confide in TVNZ and TV3 for your news digest all you will hear is what he is against, because that is what gets them the ratings.
I think the fact his 6:30 daily broadcast was forced to 2:30 twice-weekly has had a big effect in this regard.
Ah, a brief look at Destinys media releases have the spokesperson of Richard Lewis. Thats because they are political releases. Tamaki is the head of the church, not the party.
Someone me what Tamaki stands for. Then show me when he has publicly stood for what he believes, without spouting off the things and sins he opposes
I will attempt to answer your questions
1. Why does Tamaki speak more about what he opposes than what he believes. Jesus didn't
There is an appointed time and season to talk on certain things – A time for Jesus to address what he opposed – Divorce, The Pharisees, stoning, market place in the temple etc and a time to talk on what he believed in? Bishop Brian has just completed a large teaching on families (4 weeks I believe) and a trilogy series on church leadership, in other words he has preached numerously on what he believes (I can give you more if you want?) but for the purpose of the nation under siege tour – it is about pulling down ideologies/principalities and powers which are directly opposed to those of God – and countering them with a superior power – the word of God. Have you attended one of the nation under siege presentations – or have you just read the article?
2. Who appointed Brian Tamaki as bishop? Jesus or Brian Tamaki?
The pastors of Destiny Church appointed Bishop Brian a bishop – it was not out of need to call him a bishop for the sake of it – bishop is simply a term to describe the overseer of the church– which Bishop Brian is. I mean you had pastors then senior pastors then you had Pastor Brian – who was the head – it seems logical for him to be given the term Bishop – it’s a function more so then a title. Has Jesus anointed you to be the criticizer of Bishop Brian Tamaki? Sorry that was a bad joke….
3.You said the party list on the Destiny site gives an indocation of what each candidate stands for. So what do they stand for? Tell me.
The family – parents, grandparent’s children and the institution of marriage. Tax cuts, local businesses and wealth creation – oh sorry did you want specifics persons? Oh here is an example for David Knight in the Hutt South: “Strong families are the foundation of strong societies. I am committed to Destiny New Zealand’s policies which seek to protect, empower and prosper families. We must continue to focus on building and prospering the next generation”
4. Any vote for Destiny will be a wasted vote, and your powerpoint slide shows that the most likely party to get a wasted vote is Labour. Add National to that as well as they are both on 38 % in the polls
It wont be a wasted vote – a wasted vote will be voting for a party not based upon there principles and policies – but because you think the party you believe in wont get in. – I feel better knowing that I am voting for a party I believe in rather than simply admitting defeat and voting for some party like Labour/ Greens/ United Future. I won’t compromise my beliefs. Plus DNZ has an audience out there, and a strategy to re-awaken it…..
5. If Tamaki is saying that the "nation is under siege" on his website - why doesn’t he talk about the nation in his speeches instead of the Labour Party, gays, and the media.
Ummmm what exactly do you mean? What would you like him to talk about?
If you understood what the purpose of his tour is then you wouldn’t be misunderstanding the content? He is talking about how this nation is under siege from certain principalities and powers, and the tour and DVD is thus an expose of those principalities and powers and the mechanisms though which they are working – i.e. government, the media – it’s an expose in short. Here is an example of what needs to be exposed (and currently is of course) … http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=466&ObjectID=10125395
So can I ask you some questions? (Based upon a previous post you wrote) and question a few of your comments?
1. “Most church leaders do not like the Destiny approach” – are you there representative? If not how do you know this? – we have had good response from local churches actually – and if your defense is the Baptist Ministers Letter than I would ask you to please include more evidence, as people within his own church agree with our stand – so obviously even he is not able to speak on behalf of his church members?
2. “That’s because the Church does not want to partake in the kind of political action that Tamaki is proposing - apart from Destiny Church members” – again how do you know this? On Enough is Enough there were over 5 other churches involved in that coordination process, on the legacy march there were over 20 Polynesian churches, city impact, and Christian life centre? I mean there wasn’t just Destiny – and the actual DNZ Party candidates are not just Destiny Church members either?
3. “Destiny- the church and the party - draws people from the lower classes, predominately urban Maori and Polynesians, and is more well known for what it opposes than what it proposes” I am Mâori and I object to being referred to as being from a lower class – the whole church does – we are not lower class by any standard – and we are not poor either. And I can say that the local church I belong to – is evenly numbered Pakeha and Maori – and I am yet to see someone who is what you would label poor and in the position of “tithe or starve?” – That’s the stupidest thing I have ever heard – the church supports people – it doesn’t rob them – and how would you know otherwise? You have claimed a lot of things – but ahhh evidence please?
4. “Most people don’t want to spend $55.00 and contribute to a collection (eftpos
Available) to attend a Church meeting to see their leader ordained - with transport costs and annual leave on top” – Well actually around 3000 people paid that and more!!! The running of the event cost over $200’000 to run – so it’s okay to pay a price to go see a concert/ rugby match etc but not for a weekend long celebration? I paid $55 for 4 services – and they were life changing! And pa-lease – I know of many churches who charge seats at there annual conference? – Is it the money or is it because it’s coming from a church? And yes eftpos is great isn’t it! Such a convenience when you have no cash on you at the dairy – but if it’s at a church – then that’s bad…. – I get you now…….
David Farrar refers to you as a commited christian, and I am going to honeslty say as one myself if I had a problem/issue/offence with someone I would never conduct myself in the way you just have - but that just me -
"I get so angry whenever Brain Tamaki opens his mouth and rants . Why? I get really pissed off when so-called Christian leaders spout off hatred, intolerance and bigotry, as if they are speaking for the Christian perspective"
Anyways thats me - have a cool life people :)
God bless bubi!
Hey, Anonymous ( both of you, or are you one and the same)
I appreciate anyone engaging in debate - and would appreciate it even more if you had the courage to reveal your identity, like the rest of us do.
You say Destiny stands for the family. It also stands for family values. Try asking someone from Destiny what their favourite family value is and then ask them why it took so long to answer the question. Next, it takes more than family values to run a country - you need an economic policy for starters, ( Destiny doesn’t have one) and it may pay to have a policy of families outside marriage as well. Destiny doesn’t recognise these families as family units.
Regarding your questions..
As far as a vote for Destiny being a wasted vote - did you not read the post where I said a wasted party vote is a vote for Labour and National because of redistribution? Duh.
Jesus hasn’t annointed me to be the critic of Tamaki any more than he has annointed Tamaki to be a bishop. If you provide your email address I will give you some stuff of people who have struggled to tithe, and stuff on other pastors who do not support the approach that Destiny has taken. The link provided was the most obvious and high profile one. If the church had wanted to take part in political action they would have done it before the Enough is Enough Marches. No denomination head of any other denomination gave support to Enough is Enough. Paul de Jong was the closest and I know that he is not saying much now…
Point 4 - what was the question????? While youre at it can you answer Pauls last question
Well said Martin (It is Martin, I presume? You should have a blog). I have just been to "Nation Under Siege" and it was a brilliant evening. I will watch the DVD then give a write up on Tamaki and Destiny in the next few days.
in the interests of accuracy I neglected to state that Destinly DOES have an economic policy
Hi Dave and Paul, thanks for responding
Firstly Paul – I believe that if you went to destiny social services and explained the situation – that the church would find means of supporting you – wether it was through financial assistance, food assistance or maybe helping in finding a new job, giving you a mentor to enable and teach you how to budget and look after money – all of these I have seen happen within my local church and I would be more than happy to share the testimonies with you I know it has been said that it is stealing from God – but the intent of the statement must be understood – if you are not giving to God what is his out of a heart that would say “ I earned this money I deserve this” then that is stealing because it is God who enables us to create wealth, but if you are not tithing because tithing means poverty etc – than I believe the church would be sympathetic to this – there has been times when I did not tithe, and no one ever approached me and said “you did not tithe this week, you are stealing from God”
I hope this answers your question
With regards yo identity I would prefer to keep that to myself, as I have had hate mail and threats to report my blogging to my job so that I could be fired – it was not very nice But Alan if your comments were for me – then I am not Martin, I’m a chica and was at the venue you were at last night
Family policy – our party is based on the strengthening of families – through promoting the active parenting of a female and male to nurture children, it is the only party that has a clear moral vision based upon strengthening families, it is our foundation! This election is not about us – it’s about the next generation, and policies thus are centred on that. They do cater and seek to support single parent families – they reinforced this last night – but it cannot be refuted that the single most effective way of raising children – is with a mother and father. I have a single mother, and also a very active father and fortunate to have both as I know I can depend on either of them in times of need – I praise God for them. Destiny do have an economic policy also so yeah don’t know why you said that?? And sorry I didn’t understand your comment with regards to wasted votes etc – and yes a big duh on my behalf lol
With regards to enough is enough – a letter was sent out to every major denomination within NZ – your commented that “No denomination head of any other denomination gave support to Enough is Enough”. Well aside from Ps Paul DeJong’s (CLCA) church, there was Trevor Yaxley (Lifeway Ministries), a pacific Minister, Tavale Matai’a (Word of Life Church)and the new leader for the Christian heritage party – that’s for co-ordination purposes – more churches came than that – we had a Baptists etc on our bus – so yeah I don’t know where you get the opinion it was a Destiny only thing (the Media probably) and of course the Legacy march involved those parties and even more e.g. city impact, 20 Polynesian churches etc.
I want to address something that I asked you before (are you there representative? If not how do you know this?) and now I have further want for an answer – you wrote “If the church had wanted to take part in political action they would have done it before the Enough is Enough Marches. AND That’s because the Church does not want to partake in the kind of political action that Tamaki is proposing”– again how do you know this? what makes you able to speak on behalf of the NZ church – as your comment seriously implies that?
And why do you care so much that Bishop is a bishop? I mean I said before it was a function as much as a title – and if you read the description with regards to 1 timothy and those desiring the position of bishop – Mr Tamaki fits into that? I know Bishops ordination was God appointed through man through conviction of heart. Alan pointed out earlier “There is no way anyone can prove Tamaki is an immoral man who is not walking in the Spirit” – so please do not go around assuming that Jesus wouldn’t appoint Bishop Tamaki as Bishop of Destiny Church (He was not appointed Bishop of the Body of Christ lol)– would you say the same of Pastor Peter Mortlock and City Impact? Or Pastor Paul DeJong – I believe (personal opinion here guys) you just have a genuine prejeduece against Bishop Tamaki – simple as that.
Further from that – I answered your question Dave and I gave comments that addressed your comments – and as you are quite low on detail in your response, I’m inclined to ask – why? You haven’t really addressed any of my comments? All you have said that destiny nz is low on details with regards to policy and reasoning behind family values, and that destiny were alone on the enough is enough march (you did state Paul DeJong) I mean before you were all peeved off (you described it differently) at Bishop and angry – and now you seemed to have backed down a tad – why?
Hey Paul, hope your having a great day :)
Firstly ummm I don’t understand why you’re telling me your personal circumstances? I mean not to be rude – but I don’t see the relevance (sorry I have duh moments, so yeah you probably do have a point for telling me but I cant see it!) When I was a student I studied for a double degree in law and arts and worked part time and had $30- per week to do whatever with – big deal? What’s that got to do with what we are talking about – I’m just a bit confused that’s all..
I said, “Helping in finding a new job, giving you a mentor to enable and teach you how to budget and look after money,” I did not once assume
That your “position is because of negligence or ignorance” You asked what would the church do to offer support – I gave you some “examples” (I also said financial and material help – do you think that would not help in your case?) that have worked for other people – if you wanna victimise yourself by saying that I assume you need financial help because your negligent with money– than that’s your deal – but don’t go putting words in my mouth please.
As an example of help the church has personally offered my family, my brother was offered the chance to travel overseas on an awesome exchange trip – we were about $1000 short and definitely struggling – we continued to tithe and give through this – and God blessed my brother – the church fundraised for him and gave him a donation of $500. I have tithed and have received financial blessing where I said earlier my pay has gone up 50% - I wanna tithe!
“You also, at least tacitly, admit that tithing may not be possible for some people”– Yeah but when did I assert that everyone should pay tithes? I said it was biblical (it is?) and that I have heard people say it is robbing from God and explained the intent behind this statement (You steal from God if you think that your money is your own and not Gods – which I believe whole heartedly) obviously you do not fall into the former category though – what u do with your own money is your deal, hey I don’t really care what other people do with there money (i.e. tithe, give, keep etc) but they should at least know what the word of God says about tithing don’t you think – that 10% belongs to God (does it not say that?) and if after that people don’t wanna tithe – sweet as!- do what yah like – God cant force you to, and neither can myself, Bishop, or anyone!
To Dave, I wrote this earlier " “Destiny- the church and the party - draws people from the lower classes, predominately urban Maori and Polynesians, and is more well known for what it opposes than what it proposes” I am Mâori and I object to being referred to as being from a lower class – the whole church does – we are not lower class by any standard – and we are not poor either. And I can say that the local church I belong to – is evenly numbered Pakeha and Maori – and I am yet to see someone who is what you would label poor and in the position of “tithe or starve?” – That’s the stupidest thing I have ever heard – the church supports people – it doesn’t rob them – and how would you know otherwise? You have claimed a lot of things – but ahhh evidence please" you then said "I will give you some stuff of people who have struggled to tithe" - could you just post that here (Along with the comments you said you had from other pastors?). Also that doesn’t negate the ignorant comment you made about the church, its make up and the socio-economic status of its members - some people have had an offence with the church, Other churches (not destiny I’m meaning) I'm sure have also had former members leave the church with offence in there heart - are you trying to say that Destiny has more or worse cases of this? Or were you just using that to support your claim that Destiny draws on lower class people, and that we force them to tithe?
And just so you know Paul I certainly don’t judge you because you don’t tithe (not that you really care lol) and I don’t think I am better than you because I tithe – just as you don’t judge me and destiny church and Bishop Tamaki because we tithe, and just as you don’t think your better than us – am I right? Okay I gotta get back to it, so have a great day – Oh and that’s really cool to hear your doing your masters (what in?) I would love to do some post grad work, all the best with it, you seem really onto it, so I’m sure you will do awesome! Might post tomorrow if not to busy, so Bye to all !!!!
Yeah, anonymous, perhaps you can tell us all where in the bible, particularly the new testament, mentions a 10 percent tithe. Also it may pay not to spend too much time at work doing non work activities like surfing the Intenet for personal use. God is watching you.
Monsieur Anonyme,
"Destiny- the church and the party - draws people from the lower classes, predominately urban Maori and Polynesians, and is more well known for what it opposes than what it proposes" I am Mâori and I object to being referred to as being from a lower class – the whole church does – we are not lower class by any standard – and we are not poor either.
In as far as classes exist in New Zealand, and these are primarily socioeconomic ones, what Dave might have more clearly said was:
"Both Destiny Church and Destiny Party both draw members from the lower classes of the socio-economic strata in New Zealand.
Many of the people that they draw, in fact the majority of them, have an ethnic makeup of being Maori (Urban ones, from the cities) and Polynesians."
Saying, "Many Destiny recruits are 'lower class' people," and, "Destiny is made up of a high % of Maori" fortunately doesn't equal the statement, "all Maori are lower class."
As far as whether you, personally, are poor is up to you to make judgement on. I attend a Church largely consisting of Samoans, and many of them are under no illusions about the realities of their situation. Many will bluntly admit that they aren't well off. They will also admit that they don't have the freedom with money probably as much as even the average NZ household. You might conclude from that that they, too, are "poor". Nobody can tell you that you are, but they can certainly make a thoughtful analysis of the people that they see in the Church and Party roster. That's all Dave was doing.
so please do not go around assuming that Jesus wouldn’t appoint Bishop Tamaki as Bishop of Destiny Church (He was not appointed Bishop of the Body of Christ lol)– would you say the same of Pastor Peter Mortlock and City Impact? Or Pastor Paul DeJong – I believe (personal opinion here guys) you just have a genuine prejeduece against Bishop Tamaki – simple as that.
Actually, now that you mention it, I'm NOT very impressed with Ps. Mortlock either.
But as far as being prejudiced goes, let's consider this for a moment.
Imagine that I tell you about, "Pastor Steve Albertson". Do you dislike the man? Are you going to write Blog posts about why you disagree with his lifestyle and his teachings?
No?
Why not? Perhaps it is because you haven't met him, know nothing about him, have never heard him speak, been interviewed on radio or television, or seen him on the internet.
In fact, I don't think that you could actually say whether you liked Pastor Albertson until you had actually heard enough to give an opinion on. Otherwise you'd just be making things up, correct?
In fact, if you DID say something bad about him before you knew him, well then you might even risk slandering a man who you might even LIKE when you finally did hear him. He might even be a fantastic and amazing guy.
Now we'll consider Tamaki. If we had never known anything about him, would we even be writing about him? Do we write about random people we don't know, or nice people that we like? No, we've read Tamaki in the papers, seen him speak, heard him on radio, watched him on TV, met people that have also done the same, met people who have gone to Destiny Church.
Prejudice plus no other information about a person does not an opinion make.
You'll notice that many of Dave's comments are reactionary to Brian specifically. I'd say it was common sense to see that the issues raised are genuine, rather than the product of random prejudice spouted from a total vacuum.
Finally caught up on this blog. Interesting to see Tamaki reactionaries make comments only to take them back. Suggests to me people are making comments without thinking through issues clearly. Appears to me to be evidence of prejudice, which Iain has so poorly defined and illustrated (you have to know at least something about someone to be prejudiced against them - think about it!).
Sorry for assuming you were Martin, our Anonymous. After a second read I realised you were sounding more like a lady than a bloke. Once I knew didn't take me long to figure out who you are, as I know what you are talking about (have been around the blogosphere a bit). I think it is brave of you to get involved in the way that you do, despite that antagonism, and despite it rearing its head even in discussions like this one. Especially brave for a woman, as chaps like us tend to be fairly agressive (Paul, Iain and Dave particularly so on this occasion - don't know what's got into them). I guess a law degree helps ay.
I am still working through all these blogs on Tamaki, and hope to have something constructive to post before long. The main thing is that we clarify what the issues are, and provide evidence to support our claims. I would be interested to see those files you mentioned Dave. You can email them to:
allanchesswas@hotmail.com
Actually, I thought Paul was being fairly sedate, myself.
If I'm blunt, it's only because I myself feel emotionally neutral when I debate, but that leaves the downfall of accidentally being too boisterous with those who might take offense at indelicate words.
Apologies for any mis-spent words!
Anonymous
Just as a matter of interest, would you mind mentioning which Destiny Church you're from. You talked about the ratios of pakeha/polynesian/maori, which don't seem to reflect the Auckland branch. Just curious!
Chez
I can assure you that all comments ever made on my behalf are made with a general dislike of media-hype and were made through either direct experience or through friends who have been members of Destiny Church. I would also note that just because somebody disagrees with your own viewpoint, it doesn't mean that they have posted "without thinking through issues clearly" any more than you might have. The fact is that two intellectual, rational people can still have opposing viewpoints. Using assertions about each other being prejudiced or not thinking issues through clearly can be thrown in both directions equally to no productive effect.
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